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Timing belt stretched ?

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Timing belt stretched ?

Postby NubiraDellwoo » Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:21 pm

So in the past... I have already had to replace some valves due to a timing belt breaking.
everything has been fine for several years...
and then... I started to hear some buzzing or rattle coming from what I thought was the timing belt.

took things apart and I think made the mistake of removing/reinstalling the old timing belt (my guess)
was trying to check that to be sure that the belt was tight and the not causing the noises I was hearing.
Also wanted to be sure it wasn't the tensioner or idler(s) that had failed.
The later seem ok that I could tell... so

after realigning to the marks of the crank and cams to the cover indents.
I put 'er all back together and fired it up.

Now the sound is even worse.

I'm thinking that maybe the belt was stretched out in one area of the belt...
and that reinstalling that was a mistake... and I may have brought trouble to the valves.
If the belt were stretched and I reinstalled that...
would I possibly have damaged the valves in doing so ?

or do I just have the timing out of sync and the valves might be slightly hitting ?

I'm still not sure if I somehow damaged the valves by reinstalling the old belt.
I'm not sure how to check the valves without re-pulling the head again.
anyone have any insight that might be of help ?

Should I purchase a new timing belt and install that first.
to rule out that it's just off on timing...
or just assume I booger'd the valves from improper alignment ?

I can make a video of a visual and sound if that might help ?


Not looking forward to pulling this head again. :cry:
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Re: Timing belt stretched ?

Postby Daniel » Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:48 pm

First thing to do is to check if the timing/tensioning marks are still correctly aligned with the actual belt.
If yes, you have maybe placed the used belt the "wrong way" so it rotates the other way it was used since new. And tooth are making noise.
Put a new t-belt kit, turn crankshaft by hand two full clockwise turns to feel if everithing is smooth and recheck that timing marks are ok, then place crankshaft pulley and crank.
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Re: Timing belt stretched ?

Postby NubiraDellwoo » Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:29 pm

^ thanks for a reply

no... purdy sure I didn't put the belt on backwards...
as I never really completely removed that from position.
Just pulled it off the crank pulley.

However... it seems like I have some slack in the belt
near the idler pulleys...
turned over one time... the slack is at the intake side idler
turned over a 2nd time... and the slack now shows at the exhaust idler.
hmmm... that normal ?

Guess I'll just order a new belt...
and test that to be sure.

if the noise is still occurring...
I'll have to assume I've bent a valve (or several) :cry:
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Re: Timing belt stretched ?

Postby NubiraDellwoo » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:24 pm

alright....
so I pulled the head... expecting to find some bent valves...

but there are none.
so that was a complete waste of time :x

So... Now I need replace all the gaskets (including the head)
and was wondering if Fel-Pro or others are up to snuff over the oem stuff. ?

also.. since it sounded similar to bent valves... and it's not.
I must assume it had something to do with the timing belt and related parts.

Are there any replacement T belt mfg'r kits worth purchasing...
or should I stay with the pricey factory stuff ?

Is it mandatory to use replacement head bolts ?
I purchased new during the last head install.
do they need be replaced each time the head is removed ?

thanks
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Re: Timing belt stretched ?

Postby Daniel » Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:44 pm

Personally I stick to Gates belt or timing kit including it.

Service manual don't mention it's mandatory to put new head bolts. Providing they were torqued as per manual I would reuse them. You can compare the lenght of used one vs new one to see if they were stretched beyond tensile strenght. It's up to you to use new bolts.
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Re: Timing belt stretched ?

Postby MatesLeganza » Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:34 pm

I came across some kind of mechanical survey online on these engines, which said that the majority maybe 70% plus of actual belt failures and resultant valve damage etc, trace to WP failure rather than actual belt failure in its own right.

I used a QH belt recently on my job on that one I wrote about where the rear water pump outlet had decayed to nothing...and cheapo pulleys...I just went cheapest I could find online on everything...my theory is that the OEs are just cheap crap in themselves so most replacements are likely to at least last as long as OEs which is good enough..

crosses fingers.

would it be a good idea to switch idler pulleys left to right?
its odd how ive noticed that theyre always put on to rotate in opposite directions, one with lip forward, one with lip back...this invites switching them during a belt change, if one is tempted to avoid purchasing new ones...
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Re: Timing belt stretched ?

Postby NubiraDellwoo » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:59 am

^ thanks for the input...

got a new head gasket... reused the head bolts (2nd time)
that went fine...

but when I went to tighten the nuts on the exhaust manifold...
snapped one of the studs that thread into the cylinder head :x
and only at 11 ft/lbs :shock:

so I guess I'm going to have to attempt to extract that broken stud
using an extractor (EZout).
And if successful... order/replace with new studs

then I stripped another bolt when securing a camshaft bearing caps..
decided not to continue with that... and will order new bolts first.
71 ft/lbs for those camshaft cap/bearing bolts ?

I sure hope I don't have to pull the head again... to do that
just got that sucker torqued down with a new head gasket.
Doing it again... I think new head bolts would be required.
But could I get away with reusing the new head gasket ?

so these failures leave me somewhat disappointed and concerned with this repair.
And I'm wondering if I should just quit before more crap goes wrong
and I dump more money into this thing.

does anyone know of a place that sells replacement 2.0 heads at a fair price ?
a used/reconditioned head might be smarter for me at this point.
heck... I'm even tempted to look for a used motor for replacement.

anyone have a good resource on locating/purchasing used/rebuilt heads or complete used engines
for a 2.0L Daewoo ?

Does the Izusu Amigo have the same head ?
if so what years ?

frustrated...
but thanks if you can offer any thought.
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Re: Timing belt stretched ?

Postby Daniel » Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:19 am

71 ft/lbs for those camshaft cap/bearing bolts ?


STOOOOOOOOOOP!

Camshaft Bearing Cap Bolts, Intake and Exhaust: 71 Lb-in is enough! Or 8Nm.
With 71 Lb-ft you put 852 Lb-in!!!!!!!!!

Hope it's not too late.
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Re: Timing belt stretched ?

Postby NubiraDellwoo » Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:02 pm

I did stop :!: :?:

so how do I convert that 71 ft/in into ft/lbs ?
oh never mind... my torque wrench has (da.Nm.)
I'll guess that is the correct settings I should have been using.
here's hoping I didn't screw things up too badly.
It was only one bolt... and it looks like the threads gave.
hopefully I didn't booger up the threads on the head.

anyways... can't do anything until I order some new cap bolts
and fix the snapped stud for the exhaust manifold.

In looking at things...
it looks like I have to pull the head to use an ez-out
as I don't think I can reach it otherwise.
So I'll likely need to order new head bolts as well :cry:

is it possible to reuse the new head gasket...
or will I be sorry if I do ?
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Re: Timing belt stretched ?

Postby Daniel » Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:20 pm

Here is the unit converter I use http://www.joshmadison.com/software . Place it somewhere in your computer.

oh never mind... my torque wrench has (da.Nm.)
I'll guess that is the correct settings I should have been using.

When did you stop? At 8daNm?? Bad!

Be warned that there is a factor 10 between Nm and daNm!!!!!!!
And 8 daNm equals 80 Nm. And you need only 8 Nm or 0.8 daNm.

71 Lb-in = 5.9 Lb-ft = 0.8 daN-m from this converter. I doubt that your wrench graduated in daN.m can go as low as this. It is just "too strong" for the job.

I would never reuse a head gasket.
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Re: Timing belt stretched ?

Postby NubiraDellwoo » Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:48 pm

^ thanks for the conversion and understanding...
Think I tightened them to near spec.
Used new bolts for the better

Got the head back on... the valves were fine
got the broken exhaust stud extracted and installed a new one.

was bolting down the exhaust manifold...
and forgot that the dip stick well was still open...
damn if I didn't drop a nut into the sump :cry:

does this mean I'll have to pull the pan to retrieve that ?
or might it drop out when I drain the oil ?

I can only believe that all this effort was for naught...
as the problem really lay in the fact
that one of the idler pulleys sounds suspect.

So after I get everything bolted back together...
and install the new belt, tensioner, idler(s)
It should be back on line...

'least I'm hoping for that
for a little while anyways ;)

thanks to everyone whom gave me help :)
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Re: Timing belt stretched ?

Postby benzino » Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:19 pm

Drop the oil and if it comes out, it comes out... but if it doesn't, you have to drop the sump (which needs to have the oil dropped anyway so you may as well do it at the same time)
do not drive the car, there's the chance the nut might damage the crank
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Re: Timing belt stretched ?

Postby NubiraDellwoo » Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:43 am

^ Lol... I had no intention of driving it as is

drained... nothing... had to remove the oil pan... grrr
that was fun and extra messy... but found the dang nut
crawling under with limited working space really bites.
gosh I wish I owned a lift

to make my day better... snapped a bolt holding the exhaust to the cat
yep... gotta move the exhaust to get the pan off :o
guess I just have more luck then most. :roll: Lol

so I think I'll just cut off the remaining thread... drill out the rest...
and put a bolt thru it. should do

They don't seem to tap out easily ?
and due to the shape of the cat, looks like they're not meant to come out ?
If someone know if they can be replaced easily... let me know !? thanks

would seem... for every step I try to move forward with repair...
I end up taking two steps back !? :|

but there's no turning back now :p

tomorrow.. back on the line ;)
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Re: Timing belt stretched ?

Postby NubiraDellwoo » Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:52 am

got 'er all back together... da woo is running smooth...
no leaks so far... :fingers crossed:
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Re: Timing belt stretched ?

Postby benzino » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:17 am

good work :D
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