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F20/D20/F28 Revisited

Transmissions, Clutches, torque converters, Gear ratios, Brakes, Pads, etc.

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Postby Efrain A. » Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:33 am

a picture of my daewoo F16 shaft

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Postby gse_turbo » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:44 pm

How is everyones Germay?...

Check out this link, it includes more lists of models, engine code and tranny codes than I've ever seen in one location. it give breakdowns of the full tranny codes as well.
CLICK HERE
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Postby exist3nce » Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:35 am

Yup I believe Chris has posted that Opel-infos site before. Lots of info for sure.
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Postby ant0ny » Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:36 pm

pontiacjeff wrote:
ant0ny wrote:
pontiacjeff wrote:
I'd like to kow the conversion factor for AU torque ratings! 450lbs.ft. of torque in the US is only seen in large displacement V-8's!!!!!!!


Au torque rating are same as US just upside down :)

Sorry to burst your bubble...

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Bottom end was built buy a guy who normally builds drag motors... I just asked for good torque as it being a front wheel drive supposed to be for rallying on dirt.

This day we just installed the LINK Computer and we found the clutch was slipping. Latter we have ran it upto 110Hp with a clutch replacement and now it would be closer to 120+Hp on race fuel and a few more tweaks running on the track with the laptop fine tuning it.

Ant


Let me preface my reply by stating I am a Dynojet Dynamometer owner and have been testing cars since 1998.

The mathematical formula for figuring HP from TQ is:

TQ*RPM/5250=HP

Assuming a peak torque rpm of approximately 4000, your 450lbs.ft at the wheels would be equivalent to 304whp at peak torque. Assuming your peak hp rpm is roughly 6500, the measured TQ just under 400lbs.ft. at that point would be equivalent to 482whp. Sorry to burst your bubble, but I know why the numbers are erroneous.

When dyno testing an engine with a waste-spark ignition system (coil packs where one coil drives two cylinders) it is very easy to mis-interpret the rpm signal. if they took the rpm signal off a spark plug using an inductive lead, the computer will be reading a spark every 90 crank degrees instead of 180deg. typical for a 4cyl. So the actual rpm will be misinterpreted to be HALF it's actual speed. This is why the measured tq is so high. A chassis dyno measures weight vs. speed vs. time. The amount of time it takes to accelerate the dyno drums to a given speed = measured HP. From that, TQ is calculated by the dyno computer using HP and RPM by recalculating the formula above to answer TQ: HP*5250/RPM=TQ.

If the measured RPM is not correct, as appears to be the case in your test, the TQ calculation will be incorrect. This is also why your printout has HP and TQ referenced by speed instead of rpm. The computer was unable to graph the test run due to fact that the numbers don't "add up". Due to mathematical constants, HP and TQ must be equal at 5250rpm. This is why your numbers defy logic and the computer could not graph it.

I am surprised the dyno testers didn't catch this error, unless they intended you to believe them capable of building a 450lb.ft. 2.0L engine. My turbocharged C20GET which uses the Daewoo head makes 245whp on 1Bar boost and the highest TQ I was able to measure (due to the automatic trans) was roughly 250lbs.ft. at 4600rpm. I know it makes more, but the trans will downshift if I try to pull it any lower. It probably makes 275-300lbs.ft. at 3500rpm.

I hope I didn't make you angry. Instead my intention is to inform you of the grievous error made on the part of the dyno operator in allowing you to believe these numbers. Not much you can do but to tell them you know they lied about it. IN orderto run a waste-spark 4cyl, they needed to have set the rpm scale for 8cyl.

Here is a dyno run for my turbo "Woo". Notice it is in perfect graph format (hp/tq/rpm) and hp and TQ cross at exactly 5250rpm.

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Sorry I was miss leading you guys by mistake.. it was 450 foot pouinds of tractive effort... not 450 foot pounds of torque.
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Postby ant0ny » Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:49 pm

Has anyone seen different crown wheel and pinon ratios for a F28/6 gear box... either straight cut or helical.

I contacted a few people like Quaife etc and either got no reply or a "no".

Antony
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Postby kinkyllama » Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:05 pm

ant0ny wrote:Has anyone seen different crown wheel and pinon ratios for a F28/6 gear box... either straight cut or helical.

I contacted a few people like Quaife etc and either got no reply or a "no".

Antony

I think someone has...exist3nce?
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Postby gse_turbo » Sat May 10, 2008 8:54 pm

thought you guys might lick to see this... I though more people knew about it so I didn't mention much before.

I've been going back and forth between the Calibra AWD and this Impulse AWD system for my build and the time is getting close to come up with a decision.

... the transmission from an 89-90 Isuzu Impulse Turbo AWD
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... and the transfer case
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enjoy!
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Postby PrecisionBoost » Sun May 11, 2008 5:02 am

I was really serious about converting to AWD a few years back but after doing some research I ended up scrapping the idea.

Going AWD with the F28 will decrease power handling capability from what I've heard.

I remember a few years back talking with a high power ( 350BHP ) Calibra guy who was running his vehicle as a FWD

When I questioned him why it wasn't setup as an AWD he said that the transfer case was the weakest part of the F28 and it would not handle the power he wanted.

Now this is just one guy, but he seemed pretty knowledgeable.

I don't remember the exact handling level most guys said was possible with the stock Calibra F28 AWD.... for some reason 275BHP comes to mind.

Just thought I'd mention it..... if I were you I would get onto Migweb and some Calibra sites to find out what people say about the transfer case power handling capacity.
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Postby gse_turbo » Sun May 11, 2008 9:29 pm

good points Chris, thats why I've been leaning twards the Impulse tranny, it's onlt 5-speed but it has a few upsides to the F28 AWD system.

•it was sold here in the states so the parts are more available and there is no sea freight
•the being sold here neams I can use the shaft tunnel if i need to
•it came in a 2.0 turbo application so the power should be compareable to the F28
•the transfer case is quite large compared to the F28's
•the shaft from the transmission to transfer cse is HUGE! which I imagine is the weak point on the F28 system.

thanks for the imput, there is still quite a but to consider...

Garrett
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Postby Pir0 » Mon May 12, 2008 8:37 am

It's not the shaft that goes to the transfer box that's weak, it's the internals.

Put it this way, running a car with an f28, on uneven wore tyres wrecks the transfer box. Quite easily lol. So imagine what doing launches do to it.


Actually, as a first hand experience, a fella goes to the mechanic where my car is atm, and has had about 4 transfer boxes in about 6 months. Not even joking like. And he's just running a standard c20let.
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Postby gse_turbo » Fri May 30, 2008 12:01 am

IT'S TIME WE COMPILE A LIST OF ALL THE CARS THAT USE THE SAME BELLHOUSING FLANGE.

Ok I'll start listing the year make and models of the cars I know will bolt up to our motors and anyone with a solid source can add on.


••••••••••• US and CANADIAN SPEC CARS •••••••••••••
• 81-86 Buick Skyhawk 1.8 SOHC turbo (engine: C18GET) (not sure on tranny specs) FWD
• 87-89 Buick Skyhawk 2.0 SOHC turbo (engine: C20GET) (not sure on tranny specs) FWD
• 81-?? Oldsmobile Firenza 2.0 SOHC turbo (engine: C20GET) (not sure on tranny specs) FWD
• 81-?? Oldsmobile Firenza 2.0 SOHC (engine code: unknown) (not sure on tranny specs) FWD
• 87-88 Pontiac Grand Am 2.0 SOHC turbo (engine: C20GET) (not sure on tranny specs) FWD
• 87-93 Pontiac Lemans/Optima 1.6 SOHC (engine code: unknown) 4-speed manual and 3-speed auto FWD
• 89-90 Pontiac Lemans/Optima 2.0 SOHC (engine: C20LZ) 5-speed manual (F16CR) and 3-speed auto FWD
• 81-88 Pontiac J2000/2000 1.8 SOHC carberated (engine: unknown) 5-speed manual 3-speed automatic FWD
• 81-88 Pontiac J2000/2000 1.8 SOHC TBI (engine: unknown) 5-speed manual 3-speed automatic FWD
• 81-88 Pontiac J2000/2000 1.8 SOHC MPFI turbo (engine: C18GET) 5-speed manual 3-speed automatic FWD
• 88-94 Pontiac Sunbird 2.0 SOHC (engine: unknown) 5-speed manual and 4-speed auto FWD
• 88-90 Pontiac Sunbird 2.0 SOHC turbo (engine: C20GET) 5-speed manual and 4-speed auto FWD
• 04-08 Pontiac Wave 1.6 DOHC (engine: A16??) 5-speed manual and 4-speed auto FWD
• 81-94 Chevy Cavalier 2.0 SOHC (engine: unknown) 5-speed manual and 4-speed auto FWD
• 04-08 Chevy Optra 5 2.0 DOHC (engine: U20SED) 5-speed manual (D20) and 4-speed auto FWD
• 04-07 Chevy Aveo 1.6 DOHC (engine: A16??) 5-speed manual (D16) and 4-speed auto (4T40-E) FWD
• 08-on Chevy Aveo 1.6 DOHC (engine: A16??) 5-speed manual (D16SW/R)(RPO code MLM) and 4-speed auto (AW81-40LE)(RPO code MLQ) FWD
• 90-93 Geo Storm (base) 1.6 DOCH (engine: 4XE1V) 5-speed manual (tranny: unknown) and 4-speed auto (tranny: unknown) FWD
• 90-91 Geo Storm GSI 1.6 DOHC (engine: 4XE1-X) 5-speed manual (tranny: unknown) and 4-speed auto (tranny: unknown) FWD
• 92-93 Geo Storm GSI 1.8 DOHC (engine: 4XF1) 5-speed manual (tranny: unknown) and 4-speed auto (tranny: unknown) FWD
• 91-92 Isuzu Impulse RS 1.6 DOHC turbo (engine: 4XE1-T) 5-speed manual (tranny: unknown) and 4-speed auto (tranny: unknown) FWD
• 90-93 Isuzu Impulse XS 1.6 DOHC (engine: 4XE1-X) 5-speed manual and 4-speed auto FWD
• 90-93 Isuzu Stylus S 1.8 DOHC (engine: 4XF1) 5-speed manual and 4-speed auto AWD
• 90-93 Isuzu Stylus XS 1.8 DOHC (engine: 4XF1) 5-speed manual and 4-speed auto AWD
• 90-93 Isuzu Stylus RS 1.8 DOHC (engine: 4XF1) 5-speed manual and 4-speed auto AWD
• 98-99 Isuzu Rodeo 2.2 DOHC (engine: U/Y22SE) 5-speed (not sure if an auto was available) RWD
• 98-99 Isuzu Amigo 2.2 DOHC (engine: U/Y22SE) 5-speed (not sure if an auto was available) RWD
• 1991 Lotus Elan M100 1.6 DOHC turbo (engine: 4XE1-T) 5-speed (tranny: unknown)FWD
• 98-03 Daewoo Lanos 1.6 DOHC (engine: A16DMS) 5-speed manual (D16?)and 4-speed (4T40-E) auto FWD
• 98-03 Daewoo Lanos 1.5 SOHC (engine: unknown) 5-speed manual (D16?)and 4-speed (4T40-E) auto FWD
• 98-03 Daewoo Nubira 2.0 DOHC (engine: T20SED) 5-speed manual (D20)and 4-speed auto (4T40-E) FWD
• 98-03 Daewoo Leganza 2.2 DOHC (engine: T22SED) 5-speed manual (D20) and 4-speed auto (AW50-40LE)(RPO code MN4) FWD
• 04-08 Suzuki Forenza 2.0 DOHC (engine: U20SED) 5-speed manual (D20) and 4-speed auto FWD
• 04-08 Suzuki Reno 2.0 DOHC (engine: U20SED) 5-speed manual (D20) and 4-speed auto FWD
• 08-on Saturn Astra 1.8 DOHC VVT (engine: unknown) 5-speed manual (F17CR) and 4-speed auto FWD
• 99-05 Saab 9-3 2.0 DOHC turbo 5-speed manual and 4-speed auto FWD
• 99-05 Saab 9-3 2.3 DOHC turbo 5-speed manual and 4-speed auto FWD
• 99-?? Saab 9-5 2.5 V6 (not sure if it came as a manual) 4-speed auto FWD
• 99-?? Saab 9-5 3.0 V6 (not sure if it came as a manual) 4-speed auto FWD


••••••••••• UK and EUROPEAN SPEC CARS •••••••••••••
• 05-on Opel/Vauxhall Astra (G) VXR 2.0 DOHC turbo (engine: Z20LET/LEH) 6-speed manual (not sure if there was an auto) FWD


••••••••••• AUSTRALIAN SPEC CARS •••••••••••••
• 94-98 Daewoo Cielo 1.5 SOHC (engine: unknown) 5-speed manual and 4-speed auto FWD



...there are a lot more Saturn's, Geo's and Isuzu's than listed, I'm still getting that straight.

IF YOU ARE GOING TO ADD TO THE LIST HAVE ALL THE SAME INFO HANDY AS ABOVE. don't just throw on "F20" or "F28" without the car it came in.


NOTE: there is a difference in terminology that should be addressed. transmissions are reffereed to in two ways, their name/code (ie F16, D16, ...F28) and their RPO (ie.M25...). both should be listed if available, I get the impression the the M25 and F28 are the same unit, but I'm not sure.

Garrett
Last edited by gse_turbo on Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:12 pm, edited 17 times in total.
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Postby PrecisionBoost » Fri May 30, 2008 4:15 am

It seems your only listing the american cars, perhaps a separate one for the rest of the cars around the world should be considered.

After all, you don't want to miss including the 6speed M32 gearbox from the iron block 2.0L turbo Z20LET/Z20LER/Z20LEH found in the Astra VXR ( other cars as well )

Honerable mention to the F40 designed to mate up to one of the diesel engines in the Vectra ( only a few years of production for that combo... very rare )
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Postby gse_turbo » Fri May 30, 2008 4:32 pm

sounds good, I figured that's where you or some the British and European members could come in.


...I'll add a section to that post, anyone who wants to add to it can just copy and paste it.

Garrett

PS. ANY ENGINE AND/OR TRANSMISSION FWD,RWD AND AWD WITH THE SAME BELL HOUSING SHOULD BE ADDED TO THIS LIST BUT ONLY IF ALL THE INFORMATION IS RELATIVELY COMPLETE.
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Postby gse_turbo » Fri May 30, 2008 9:40 pm

just looking around google here is an interesting site http://www.diffgearbrakpan.co.za/gearboxes.htm

they list a FWD transmission refered to as a "Opel TS 6 speed gearbox" but it doesn't look like an F28.

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Postby corsaboy » Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:48 am

If you have broken an F20 Gearbox with you C20XE, try to find a F18+ gearbox.
The internals are stronger then the internals from the F20 and i believe that the fifth gear ratio was different.
Almost the same as the 6th gear ratio from the f28.

Don't know if these gearboxen have ever been sold in the US.
Here in holland you can sometimes find them.

The only problem we had with a F20 was that the fifth Gear broke,
but this gearbox we used with a c20let, 260/270 cranck HP.
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