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Pontiac/Daewoo hybrid turbo project complete... DYNO NUMBERS

Forced induction, NA tunning, exhaust, just performance

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Pontiac/Daewoo hybrid turbo project complete... DYNO NUMBERS

Postby pontiacjeff » Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:54 am

I haven't been here in a while, so I don't know what's the latest news. Two years ago I did what I think was the first Daewoo head swap on the Sunbird turbo engine. After on and off playing with it, I finally got serious last summer and built a real turbo header and system. The result is this:

C20GET bottom end, +.5mm forged GM pistons with valve reliefs added, cast steel C20GET crank, ARP main studs, stock GET rods polished and shot-peened and resized with ARP bolts, stock windage tray, Z20LET MLS head gasket (sourced from the UK) with two Victor Gaskets .020-thick steel "head-savers", one above and one below the MLS gasket to reduce compression from 8.5:1 down to 8.0:1 (it also advanced the cams about 4deg... more on that later.) A stock 75K-mile Nube head was used, not even replaced the valve seals. I used the Nube intake with a custom upper plenum to remote-mount a Quad 4 throttle body. The turbo header is a cracked-up SS Autochrome Acura 4-tube I modified with a Daewoo exh flange I built. I cut off about 1" of the tubes and raised the turbo about 1", too. It uses a 40mm TiAl w.g. I don;t like the angle of the w.g, but it seems to work o.k. It has a separate dump tube that runs back into the exh about 1ft. from the turbo. A full 3" exh system runs into a 3" crossflow Flowmaster with twin exits. The turbo is a T3 (GT35)/T04E Super 60 hybrid. It uses a .82 a/r turbine housing. This was selected for drag racing and max power at high rpm. It is rather slow-spooling and doesn;t reach full boost til 4200rpm. Anytime you hit the floor it goes to 5psi, though, so it's not too bad for street driving. I run a Starion fmic that is modified for 2.5" inlet and outlet. It works extremely well. On the dyno or on the street, the manifold air temps never rise more than 15deg from the start of a run to the end of a run. The highest MAT I have ever seen was 102degF. I am running 93 octane and have only 4deg KR at peak torque from 4400-5100. I am actually adding back some timing above 5000, about 2-3deg.

I retarded the intake cam one full tooth on the gear to reduce overlap 15deg. This helped alot in the mid-range. Allowing faster spool and more power from 3500-up. I want to play with advancing the exh more (rasing the head advanced both int and exh about 4deg.) I have plenty of valve clearance with the thick gaskets, so I am not worried about that. I might switch to a 65 a/r turbine and hope to not lose much top end but gain some low to mid-range.

Well, the first time I dyno'd it last Aug I hit 307whp on 15psi. Now after some tuning I am up to 312whp on the same 15psi. I built the engine for 20+psi. After adding a plate to the top of the w.g spring, I can now adjust the w.g. for more boost. Just adding the thickness of the plate has raised the boost to 18psi. The extra boost feels like another 50hp! I'm sure it's not quite that much, but it is nearly imposible to drive now.

I am going to need either an airpump to scavenge the crankcase or I might try a simple drag racing trick
and build an exhaust scavenge with an old diverter valve welded to the exh pipe at a 45deg angle. Simple but effective. I say this b/c I am getting some serious crankcase pressure past the rings and they quit sealing when the blowby comes back up from below. You have to pull a vacuum on the crankcase when you are boosted (and even when not...).

My goal is 375-400whp on no more than 25psi. I really don;t want to build another engine. Besides, this is strictly for bragging rights... I will detune it back to 15psi for racing. I can barely hook it at that power level.

The car runs a Getrag 282 with a Spec stage 3+ clutch. It is very difficult to drive. If you don;t keep both hands on the wheel and watch the road ahead, you will run right off to the side and change lanes in a heartbeat!

The dyno graph below is for the 307whp run last Aug. I'll add the new graph as soon as the dyno shop emails it to me. The engine is alot smoother now and doesn;t have the dip from 4200-5000rpm.

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Postby daewoomofo » Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:12 am

NICE!
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yeah i cant type, so what big freaking deal!
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Postby pontiacjeff » Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:22 pm

I wanted to update this thread... I reached my goal, but on WAY less boost than imagined! On "only" 17psi, it ultimately made 375whp! That is with a custom short-runner intake manifold, QED intake cam and an incredible tune (by me). But the weak link reared it's ugly head this weekend. The #3 rod ejected from the engine. I am going to put my top-end on a fully built 2.2 next.
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Re: Pontiac/Daewoo hybrid turbo project complete... DYNO NUMBERS

Postby mr_g » Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:03 am

Did you advance the ignition to much?

Is the connecting rod stock or forged? C20GET, C20XE, C20LET have a very weak bottom end..
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Re: Pontiac/Daewoo hybrid turbo project complete... DYNO NUMBERS

Postby pontiacjeff » Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:02 pm

mr_g wrote:Did you advance the ignition to much?

Is the connecting rod stock or forged? C20GET, C20XE, C20LET have a very weak bottom end..


Not so weak, it lived to over 400hp and the only reason it broke was detonation caused by low octane fuel I had in the car one time only. I was not even racing, only driving normally.

The 2.2 I am running for now is a T22 from a Leganza, well-used factory bottom end, stock rods, ARP rod bolts. The engine had about 100K miles on it. I put the top end from my old 2.0 race engine on it. I used the Leganza block girdle and an Isuzu RWD oil pan modified for FWD. The Leganze oil pan would not clear my Pontiac frame.

I had to retard the ignition 10 degrees from what I ran before. The 2.0 was 8:1 forged pistons, this is 9.5:1 cast pistons. On 18psi, the "new" 2.2 makes 340whp, which is about the same as the 2.0, but now I have an automatic transmission and more power is lost thru the auto than the manual. I am only running 10 degrees timing on 18psi with pump gas. The 2.0 I could run at 23 degrees timing on pump gas at 17psi.

The "race" 2.2 is in the works. it is a 2.2 Isuzu bottom end, will not use balance shafts, but the Daewoo block girdle instead. I have a set of Woseco pistons and rings for it, I will modify it for piston oilers, ARP studs. I have a set of Oldsmobile Quad 4 forged steel con rods I am modifying for use in the 2.2. They are about .030" shorter than the stock 2.2 rod, so I will have to deck the block some. The target is 8.5:1 compression. I will likely use the LET head I have with a custom short-runner intake, my throttle body and distributor like I have it now. A new Turbo will likely be used, something in the 60-1 or 62-1 range with a LET header. My g9oal with the new engine will be 500whp, but that will be a few years.
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Re: Pontiac/Daewoo hybrid turbo project complete... DYNO NUMBERS

Postby mr_g » Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:53 am

What electronics are you using? I see a lot of not needed hardware on the engine...

Loose that distributor for ignition sparks and put some wasted spark coil pack or a coil over plugs, like I did. Put some real after market ECU like VEMS and open the all potential of that engine...

As I can see you have invested big buck and a lot of knowledge inside the engine, but engine management isn't up for that job... :(
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Re: Pontiac/Daewoo hybrid turbo project complete... DYNO NUMBERS

Postby pontiacjeff » Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:22 pm

mr_g wrote:What electronics are you using? I see a lot of not needed hardware on the engine...

Loose that distributor for ignition sparks and put some wasted spark coil pack or a coil over plugs, like I did. Put some real after market ECU like VEMS and open the all potential of that engine...

As I can see you have invested big buck and a lot of knowledge inside the engine, but engine management isn't up for that job... :(


I am using the best and easiest to tune, the factory Pontiac ECU (7749). It is speed-density tuned, EST (distributor), multi-port (batch-fire), and very cheap and easy to use. I don't have 1000.00-1500.00 to spend on less capable stand alone units. Waste spark is no better, I am using an MSD 6AL with Blaster HVC coil for 6 years with no loss of spark. I am running 65# injectors over 450hp with only 12ms peak dc right now. And that's only on 43psi base fuel pressure. The BSFC on this engine is an amazingly low .5 for a turbo car. I run it 12.0:1 AFR on pump gas, good timing, no KR. I am only running 18psi boost now. I am running on a Motorola 2.5bar map sensor with rescaled fuel and timing tables. I can fuel up to 22psi with no added fuel pressure. On that boost I will be approaching 500hp, and the inevitable limit of the stock rods in this junkyard short block. I might try it, but not until the race engine is ready to go in.

The car ran a 12.38@117mph this weekend. if I could launch the car a little harder, it will go in the mid-11's easily at the current power level.
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Re: Pontiac/Daewoo hybrid turbo project complete... DYNO NUMBERS

Postby mr_g » Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:44 pm

VEMS www.vems.hu full sequental up to 8cylinders with 8 sparks sequental, wbo2 controller, egt, knock, ion, cdi, with a lot of features like launch controll, flat shifting,advanced antilag system, boost controller based on wehicle speed, etc, for just 400$! Think about it... :)

Batch and distributor isn't very good solution, even more if you use it as a dialy driver... Just my 50cents...
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Re: Pontiac/Daewoo hybrid turbo project complete... DYNO NUMBERS

Postby pontiacjeff » Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:17 pm

That is a very nice system, but 448euro is about 750usd! I like my distributor and batch. As I said, it is making over 100hp/cyl on .5bsfc and good timing. This is a well-used 2.2 with CAST pistons and CAST rods! This car is driven daily and gets 23-26mpg, not bad for batch-fire. When I install the "race" engine with the LET top-end, I might go with coil-on-plug and sequential, but for now, I'll keep this as it is.
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Re: Pontiac/Daewoo hybrid turbo project complete... DYNO NUMBERS

Postby mr_g » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:40 am

I have paid VEMS kit with wide band O2 sensor included for just 350EU... :) That's a barging you cannot refuse... ;)

And besides the features, engine looks clean... Priceless... :)

Image

Good luck in further engine tuning... ;)
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