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Starting problem

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Starting problem

Postby NubiraDellwoo » Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:15 am

2001 Nubira 2.0

I have an issue with starting...
It will start... stubbornly.
So I know the ignition side is working.

But I'm wondering if this could be fuel related ?
Tho' once started... it runs fine.
no hesitation or misfires

Got about 120,000 miles on the odo
I do have a code that keeps popping up intermittently...
Has to do with the Crankshaft position sensor.
Because it was intermittent and didn't seem to effect the motor's operation...
I just ignored following up on that or replacing the sensor. (seemed difficult to get to !?) :oops:

But the newest starting issue has just recently come to be.
I've yet to run another code read...
Is it possible that a failing, intermittent connection at the CPS would later cause starting issues ?

Fuel pump makes noise when ign. it first turned on...
But I thought I heard something gurgling... coming from under that back seats...
Near where the fuel tank sits.
Almost sounds like the fuel pump is engaging and disengaging...
Meh... I may be hearing things in my imagination.

Anyone know something that might offer me a clue ?

thanks ahead
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Re: Starting problem

Postby NubiraTurbo » Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:07 am

The fuel pump primes for a sec or two when ignition is switched on. That is normal. The gurgling sound could be from the fuel return into the tank that your hearing. I dont think your car would show check engine light if it's fuel ralated, because it does not measure fuel pressure nor afr. Not sure if yours has lambda though, mine doesn't, but there is a place for one in the exhaust manifold. The CPS could cause starting issues. But are you sure its not something simple, like spark plugs/plug wires, that's causing the starting issue. Check if the car smokes (fuel smoke) after first start. As a test you can adjust the spark plug gap smaller (to about 0.5mm) and see how it starts. Before you remove the spark plug, check for oil in the plug port. A leaking valve cover gasket sometimes fills those right up with oil, causing spark leak to the head (Mine did that). To check the wires; start the car with bonnet open and engine cover removed in a very dark place and look for little flashes of spark on the wires.
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Re: Starting problem

Postby NubiraDellwoo » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:31 am

NubiraTurbo wrote:The fuel pump primes for a sec or two when ignition is switched on. That is normal. The gurgling sound could be from the fuel return into the tank that your hearing. I dont think your car would show check engine light if it's fuel ralated, because it does not measure fuel pressure nor afr. Not sure if yours has lambda though, mine doesn't, but there is a place for one in the exhaust manifold.

I'm not even sure what "lambda" means !? But the fuel pump seems to be working properly.

NubiraTurbo wrote:The CPS could cause starting issues. But are you sure its not something simple, like spark plugs/plug wires, that's causing the starting issue. Check if the car smokes (fuel smoke) after first start. As a test you can adjust the spark plug gap smaller (to about 0.5mm) and see how it starts. Before you remove the spark plug, check for oil in the plug port. A leaking valve cover gasket sometimes fills those right up with oil, causing spark leak to the head (Mine did that). To check the wires; start the car with bonnet open and engine cover removed in a very dark place and look for little flashes of spark on the wires.

My valve cover has been a constant battle with leaking oil... new gasket, RTV, you name it... I've done it.
Still the damn thing will begin leaking after awhile. grrr.

I have had issue with the SP wells filling up in the past... But never had issues starting when that occured.
Will take a look at that again to see if that could be causing this current issue.

If it were the case... why would it fire after several attempts ?
When it fires up... I don't see any dark smoke emitted from the the tailpipe as if it were burning up oil from the plugs.
Nor does it run rough after it fires up. In fact it runs great, even at idle... just not firing up correctly.

I kinda thought I smelled raw fuel just after it finally catches and fires up.
So then I started thinking maybe it's something wrong with the injectors...
But then... it runs great after it fires... and I smell no raw fuel during operation.

Thanks for commenting...
appreciate your time and any other insight you might have.

-------------------

edit:

so I pulled the SP well cover...
and sure enough... there was a little oil found in the SP wells... again.
Wasn't as much as I'd found during previous repairs...
sopped that up somewhat... and it did in fact fire up with less hesitation.
Tho' it still took a few more cranks then what I would consider normal...
but seemed to fire easier then previous days/attempts... so I'll hope that you are right...
And the leaking oil has fouled the plug wires and is the cause of my current starting issue.

So are the plug wires likely shot because of the oil seeping into the SP wells ?
I found worse leakage then this prior... never had starting issues, but did have some misfiring occur.

I cleaned up the plug wires on previous SPW oil removal...
But maybe they are so fubar'd at this point... it is time !?
The spark plugs themselves are recent and doubt they're of any issue.

Besides the fact I will need pull the valve cover again for another reseal :x
Maybe I'll need replace the plug wires this round. grrr... mo' money into the pit.
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Re: Starting problem

Postby benzino » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:20 am

the reason rocker covers on the 2.0l are so prone to leaking is because people love to over-tighten them.
they are listed at 8nm IIRC (5lb-ft)
also, there are o rings under each bolt that almost never get replaced and you're only meant to put sealant at the half moons
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Re: Starting problem

Postby NubiraTurbo » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:15 am

I don't think that oil would ruin your the cables. Every time I cleaned mine they worked fine afterwords. Mine filled up right to the top, probably due to some sump pressure under boost, coupled with a somewhat restricted exit at that rocker cover. Maybe it's just time for new ones anyway, but I would borrow someone else's first just to check. Although if they're not good, they would maybe give issues if you fiddle with them while car is idling (just wiggle them in all directions). Try to change that plug gap to 0.5mm. I'm almost certain it would solve your problem. O, and a lamba is a device that measure air fuel ratio in the exhaust. It looks like a spark plug in the exhaust manifold. It can have 1 or 3 or 4 or 5 wires, depending on its type. (narrow band/wide band and with- and without heater). Lastly if your starting issue is caused by misfiring, it's likely to smoke from exhaust just after first start. You probably wont see it if you start the car yourself. Ask someone to start engine while you look at exhaust. Again, adjusting the plug gap should give you a clue whether it's spark related. (I think the standard setting is 0.8mm - 1mm, although mine is permenantly set to 0.5mm.)
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Re: Starting problem

Postby NubiraDellwoo » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:20 am

benzino wrote:the reason rocker covers on the 2.0l are so prone to leaking is because people love to over-tighten them.
they are listed at 8nm IIRC (5lb-ft)
also, there are o rings under each bolt that almost never get replaced and you're only meant to put sealant at the half moons

I don't "love to" but I must be doing something wrong. Lol
I failed to notice O-rings were fitted around the bolts. (not sure how I missed that, duh)
I do appreciate your heads up and suggestions Image

NubiraTurbo wrote:Try to change that plug gap to 0.5mm. I'm almost certain it would solve your problem.

The plugs I set as per the FSM (but swear I don't remember what that was at this moment) :?
But I'll give that tip a try if I pull the plugs again.
What's it do... make the plugs burn hotter ?

NubiraTurbo wrote:O, and a lamba is a device that measure air fuel ratio in the exhaust. It looks like a spark plug in the exhaust manifold. It can have 1 or 3 or 4 or 5 wires, depending on its type. (narrow band/wide band and with- and without heater).

like a oxygen sensor ? living: smog capitol USA :roll:

NubiraTurbo wrote:Lastly if your starting issue is caused by misfiring, it's likely to smoke from exhaust just after first start. You probably wont see it if you start the car yourself. Ask someone to start engine while you look at exhaust. Again, adjusting the plug gap should give you a clue whether it's spark related. (I think the standard setting is 0.8mm - 1mm, although mine is permanently set to 0.5mm.)

I've had my son start it on several occasions... was no color change in the exhaust noted...
was an acrid or raw fuel smell slightly... but gone in moments after the engine was run.

I know I'm an idiot for not looking at the little things...
but found a fresh air filter in the garage and swapped that out with
the one on the nubira... the original was fairly soiled looking (neglected for sure) :oops:
a cleaner air flow couldn't make it worse right !? Lol

Well I'm still checking it out...
but it did start easier when I was attempting a half hour ago...
was gonna let it sit for awhile and then re-attempt to start.
see if any improvement is noticed !?

really dumb of me... if it turns out that fault was simply a dirty air filter. :doh:

I have somehow managed to tack 120K/miles onto the ODO...
this car is tired as h... but keeps on driving !? Lol

^ drive train and brakes in order tho' ;)
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Re: Starting problem

Postby NubiraTurbo » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:24 am

Ok, nice. It's really hard to guess what the cause may be without being at the car. But if there's no smoke, i doubt that it caused by misfire (might still be though). A slight petrol smell just after startup is normal. Maybe check all the vacuum pipes also. An effective way for me is to remove the intake pipe(at throttle body), start the car, and then close the inlet with your hand or something, while it sucks hard, then let someone shut down the engine(if it doesn't die on its own) and try to hear for sucking sounds while keeping the intake blocked. It may also be fuel filter, but if the car drives normal, especially at full throttle, then I highly doubt that it's fuel related.

O lastly, no it would not get hotter or anything with a smaller spark plug gap. It will just spark easier. No damage can be done by doing this. People say that you get better performance with a larger gap, but that is debatable. If it's even true it would be in the region of <1%. Does the car always struggle to start, or just with a cold start?
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Re: Starting problem

Postby NubiraDellwoo » Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:05 pm

NubiraTurbo wrote: Does the car always struggle to start, or just with a cold start?

Once the car has started... it runs great... and seems to start easier after it's initial starting.

After it starts... if I turn it off...
it definitely starts much better immediately after shutdown.
Tho' I still need use my special start up technique (read below)

When the car has sat overnight... it's that initial start that seems most difficult.
So yeah... the cold start seems to be most problematic.

After sitting overnight.... I have to do a starting technique, repeating the same method with each initial start attempt.

That method is:

Turn the key on... let fuel pressure build for that 2 seconds...
then pump the accelerator pedal once... (more then once or holding that down does not work)
Initially it may attempt to fire... but if it don't... then I have to repeat this method several times.
On some occasions it will require 5-7 attempts of turning the key/one throttle application each attempt.

After several attempts... eventually it will try to fire.
Intermittently on several attempts... as it will try to fire... but will stall or fail...
but it will eventually fire and keep running.

I don't allow the starter to turn for more then a few seconds during each attempt
because it will not fire with continued turning over of the starter.

It seems to be something fuel related... tho' I can't be sure.
It's kinda weird that It will fire more easily sometimes then on other occasions.
But is always more difficult when starting cold.

Almost like a clogged fuel filter would behave...
but I would think that would affect the motors operating performance as well. (but it don't) hmmm

Maybe I should change out the fuel filter just to eliminate any possibilities !?
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Re: Starting problem

Postby NubiraTurbo » Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:42 pm

If you want to add more fuel as a check you can try the following. Unplug the 3mm vacuum pipe from the fuel pressure regulator (its on the fuel rail to the left when standing in front of the car,just before the fuel return pipe.) this will set the fuel pressure to max(about 4 bar instead of 3) and will also make the ecu think the engine is under heavy load because the manifold pressure will be close to zero,adding yet more fuel. This wont prove much,because even a severy damaged engine(low compression etc) will run when running way too rich. If this makes no difference then you should have a look at fuel supply,although fuel issues will become much more evident during full load than during starting. I'd still rather make spark plug gaps 0.5 mm and see what happens. One more thing, is your idle control working?(does the car try to keep the rpm at idle when you slowly release the clutch in 1st witout touching the throttle.)
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Re: Starting problem

Postby Trey05Woo » Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:02 pm

Your issue is related to your CPS code. The CPS provides the computer with the position of each piston in its cylinder, and the computer uses this information to fire the spark plugs accordingly. No signal = no command from the computer to the ignition module to pulse the coils, aka no ignition. Currently, you are playing with fire as the problem will progress from hard to start to no start. You don't want to drive the vehicle like this.

Before you change the sensor, you should confirm the integrity of the circuit: confirm you are getting your 12v and ground at the CPS, and you want to confirm there is no damage to the reluctor wheel which it responsible for triggering the CPS. The reluctor wheel is actually part of the crank pulley. It is a gear attached to the rear of the pulley. The final check you should do is confirm the signal reaches the ignition control module. All of these tests can be done with a inexpensive voltmeter.

If you need instructions on how to do so, I can make you a write up.
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Re: Starting problem

Postby NubiraDellwoo » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:41 am

Trey05Woo wrote:Your issue is related to your CPS code. The CPS provides the computer with the position of each piston in its cylinder, and the computer uses this information to fire the spark plugs accordingly. No signal = no command from the computer to the ignition module to pulse the coils, aka no ignition. Currently, you are playing with fire as the problem will progress from hard to start to no start. You don't want to drive the vehicle like this.

Before you change the sensor, you should confirm the integrity of the circuit: confirm you are getting your 12v and ground at the CPS, and you want to confirm there is no damage to the reluctor wheel which it responsible for triggering the CPS. The reluctor wheel is actually part of the crank pulley. It is a gear attached to the rear of the pulley. The final check you should do is confirm the signal reaches the ignition control module. All of these tests can be done with a inexpensive voltmeter.

If you need instructions on how to do so, I can make you a write up.

Yes please...

I don't mind purchasing a new CPS cable if need be...
But I do have a voltmeter...
So if testing the CPS might help resolve my issue...
I'd wanna try that. :)

Only problem is I can't seem to locate the lower end of the CPS cable.
It's on the block, somewhere behind the AC compressor I think...
Do I need remove the AC compressor to get to that ?

I looked up in there, from underneath and still couldn't see it. :cry:
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Re: Starting problem

Postby benzino » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:35 am

if you use a good torch you should be able to see it
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Re: Starting problem

Postby NubiraDellwoo » Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:32 pm

benzino wrote:if you use a good torch you should be able to see it

thought it was...

I can trace the wire where it goes in and under the AC mount...
But when I go to look or even feel for it up in there...
I can't seem to find where it attaches...

geez... for all that i know... it could just be loose at it's mounting bolts.

I'll go crawl up in there and take another look.
Sure hope I don't have to pull a bunch of components just to get to it :x
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Re: Starting problem

Postby benzino » Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:27 am

Untitled.jpg
(92.26 KiB) Not downloaded yet
if you need to get under the A/c, you don't have to disconnect the hoses, just pull the belt and loosen the mounting bolts
that should give you enough room
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Re: Starting problem

Postby NubiraDellwoo » Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:12 pm

benzino wrote:
Untitled.jpg
if you need to get under the A/c, you don't have to disconnect the hoses, just pull the belt and loosen the mounting bolts
that should give you enough room

Thanks...
would seem I will have to...
Looks like the mounting brackets of the AC are hiding the CPS mount location.

I spent another hour looking up in there, from above and below
and from every angle I could attempt.
And with the most powerful light I own !

I still cannot see where the dang CPS plug end mounts to the block ?! :x
Tried sticking my hand up in there to trace the CPS wire coming in...
and my hands tho' not too large... cannot feel and find it neither...
frustrating to say the least. :cry:

I looked thru the FSM and I don't see where it details the CPS routing.

I haven't looked yet...
but I'll hope the FSM details the removal of the AC mount/bracket ?

Has anyone here in the past written an article pertaining to replacement of the CPS
on these 2.0 Nubira's ?

tried search google... not seeing much pertaining.

Might as well purchase a new sensor cable...
as it seems like it's gonna be a real pita to get to. :x
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